Hair What I'm Saying

“Curl Pattern Chart Myths: What Stylists Want You to Know”

• Kinetra • Season 5 • Episode 4

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The curl chart went viral, but it never learned your life. We sit down with Minnie of Shag Noir Salon ATX to unpack why letters and numbers can’t tell you what your hair needs; and what actually can. From porosity and pH to water hardness, climate, and stress, we share a simple way to decode your hair’s real behavior and build rituals that work in the real world, not just on a grid. Minnie takes us through her journey working with every texture, the hard-earned lessons of salon education, and the honest talk clients crave: growth versus length retention, the myth of “complicated” natural hair, and why a minimal routine often outperforms a product haul. We break down how to spot influencer noise, when to trust a pro, and how to track what’s working with photo journals and small, measured tweaks. You’ll hear practical approaches for detangling with tension, choosing lighter milks for low-porosity hair, sealing for high-porosity strands, and using chelating when hard water dulls your results. We also go deeper on texturism and language. Words like “nappy” don’t just sting; they shape behavior and stress. We explore how reframing our vocabulary can change how we care for hair, how bias shows up in chairs and feeds, and why preference in technique isn’t prejudice but context. If your goal is “soft and manageable,” we show you how to get there without chasing someone else’s pattern. If you love a silk press, we set realistic expectations about reversion, maintenance, and strand health. Your hair is a living system; responsive, resilient, and personal. Trade the chart for curiosity, build a ritual you can keep, and make peace with what you have while getting the feel you want. If this conversation helped, follow, subscribe, and leave a review. Share it with someone who’s ready to ditch the letters and finally understand their hair.

You can connect with Minnie on Instagram personally and professionally at trichophile or shagnoirsalon.

Don't forget to follow Kinetra on Instagram @_hairwhatimsaying_ and check out her website Hair What I'm Saying for more.

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SPEAKER_03:

Welcome back to another episode of Hair What I'm Saying. This is where we have real conversations about hair, culture, and identity, a space for healing and understanding. Today we're talking about the curl pattern chart. Yes, that chart you've seen all over social media and how it's been misleading people in the curl community. To help me break it down, I'm joined by Minnie of Shagnor Salon. This is actually her third time on the show, and every time she comes, she brings her expertise, honesty, and real world experience. Minnie works with all textures, which makes her the perfect person to help unpack why the chart isn't what we've been led to believe. Welcome to the Hair What I'm Stand podcast. I'm your host, Kenitra Stewart. Today we have Minnie of Shag Noir Salon ATX joining us again, again, and again for a third time. Welcome to the show, Minnie. How are you?

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. I'm wonderful.

SPEAKER_03:

Good. I'm having a good day so far. So with you. Oh, this is so sweet. I thought we haven't seen each other since when?

unknown:

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03:

The last time we done the podcast? That was a year ago.

SPEAKER_02:

To talk about.

SPEAKER_03:

We sure do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

That was a year ago. Was it? Yes, it was. It was September. I remember the.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm gonna say it was pretty outside. I'm like, it was.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it was September. Yeah. It's October, but it's hot. What the heck is going on with Texas? It's hot if you're just sitting out there. Yeah. It's October.

SPEAKER_02:

It's so normal. I just told my son, I was like, it's probably gonna get cold around December.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. That is Texas, though. That is the vibe for Texas. Louisiana liked that too, where I'm from.

SPEAKER_02:

But coming from Virginia to Texas, I'm like Louisiana, y'all stay cold all the way to like February. February, March.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. It's all good though. I mean, we're here.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

If you had just get get just go into some AC, that's all I can tell you. I mean.

SPEAKER_02:

I keep I keep a jacket and then a crop top on just to fluctuate in between the hot flashes, AC, and outside.

SPEAKER_03:

No, for real.

SPEAKER_02:

For real.

SPEAKER_03:

What you been up to?

SPEAKER_02:

I cooked last night.

SPEAKER_03:

What you cooked?

SPEAKER_02:

I had my let me tell you what happened. Okay, so I had my cousin.

SPEAKER_03:

Not what you cook, but let me tell you what happened.

SPEAKER_02:

So I wanted to get, I went to Radiant. Shout out to Radiant Butcher. Or Radius. Radius. Messed up the name. Radius Butcher on 7th Street. So it was salt and time. I went and got, I wanted to get short ribs, but they didn't have them. Of course, the night the night I'm having my cousins over. Right. And I got Chuck and I overcooked it.

SPEAKER_01:

Girl, shut up. Tough.

SPEAKER_02:

So I made polenta and then I braised the vegetables and everything else. But the meat I threw out to the dogs.

SPEAKER_03:

It was tough, wasn't it? The meat was tough.

SPEAKER_02:

My cousin was like, you should have cooked this all day. I'm like, it was different. Oh my God. I did the same recipe as I did with the short ribs, but the short ribs cook in like three hours. These I should have cooked for days. This chakros.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my. But I don't cook often, so you cooked it too fast. It's alright. It's okay. At an expensive.

SPEAKER_02:

But that's what I've been up to, just my dogs. And then, of course, the salon always sorting outing of my salon.

SPEAKER_03:

It's never ending. Do you believe it's because of how everything is evolving? Like with, you know, just certain it's a lot of things are involved evolving to the point where I can't even pinpoint it to anything.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it's like an aspect of it, right? Because you still want to uh honor and hold space for those who have been overworked and undervalued. But but you still have to understand that it's a business, right? And and I I think that is an element of it, but there's so many, there's so many aspects.

SPEAKER_03:

It sure is. And they are never in.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Because of course, to me, like my stylus and how content they are in in the environment that I create is is very high on the scale for me. Like that's one of the top priorities for me. Um, but it's like, what does it look like? What does it look like like for a collective? What does it look like for one person? And do you you can't cater to one person, right? So yeah, and evolving out of that like heavy workspace, but also understanding that it does take commitment and discipline.

SPEAKER_03:

It sure does. Well, we we need to create an episode about that in the future. We will. We got to get that on the schedule. A sap Rocky. That's how the young folks say it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Cause you know, now we're looking at like this generation to our parents, and you're like, it is completely different worlds on how to produce and how to create.

SPEAKER_03:

And us millennials, we're like stuck in the middle. Like, yep. Which way do I go? Which way do I go?

SPEAKER_02:

Do I go to the internet influencing, or do I go pick up a hammer?

SPEAKER_03:

A machete, you know? So no for real. It's a lot. Us millennials, we I feel like we have it the toughest. Because of what you mentioned. You know, we have the younger generation and we have kids in that generation, and then we have parents in that generation, and I don't know what was going on in that generation.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, a lot.

SPEAKER_03:

We know what was going on, but we're gonna keep it, you know, we ain't gonna just keep it kosher today. Right. And so then we just kind of stuck in the middle. Yeah, and that's why I don't want to be biased, but I feel like we're the toughest generation because we're stuck, we're like the middle child. Like a rock out of our place.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm. Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Because what I what I find that I talk about a lot with the people is you can either get on, which I heard on the news the other day, which and this is the first time I've actually heard this. You're make you're in between making that decision of like, do I just go full-fledged digital? Now I gotta make a decision what I want to do with this digital.

SPEAKER_03:

And that's why we're stuck in the middle, because we've had the best of both worlds.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Or do I, you know, go start a business? Do I get rid of my job? Or do I go apply for another job? Do I work harder? Do I go get an education to go get the job I always wanted? Or do I just go show my toes on OnlyFans? I mean, these are the decisions people are having to make now. You know what I'm saying? That was amazing. That's the reality.

SPEAKER_03:

Seriously, that is the reality.

SPEAKER_02:

And then we're like, no, but I've got integrity, I've got grit. I went to school, I went to college, I I paid for the classes, the$1,200 every time I wanted to learn something new. So we want to, you know, but we're seeing the the polarity in how people are making a living.

SPEAKER_03:

And yeah. Back when we were coming out of high school, it was like, you know, we're either gonna go to college, we're gonna join the military, or we're gonna go to some vocational school. Are you gonna party? Or you're gonna party. Whatever you're gonna do. But it was very simple. You only had a few little choices. Choices.

SPEAKER_02:

So to put this in perspective with the like futurism of like where technology has taken us, I was asking my son um when we were at dinner one night, I was like, and to my ex, I wanted my ex to see the difference. And I didn't know the difference. I just w I wanted to bring it out and make it real, right? So I asked my son, I was like, I told Casey, I was like, I'm going to ask him if he thinks getting out of high school and making 20 grand is difficult. Because I don't know. I don't know what he's gonna say. I don't know what I don't know what these kids think. Oh, right. And he said, No. Super easy. And I said, So tell me why. What what because to us, even to the millennials, if 20 grand in a month is that's a stretch. You're hustling, you're figuring it out. Like you figured it out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because that's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Um and he was like What was his why?

SPEAKER_02:

You could do e-commerce a lot. I can't re I remember the e-commerce, I remember influencing, but scamming? Like that's a real job to them.

SPEAKER_03:

Where I was like, please.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I was like, please understand for me as your mother, you jump into that role. I will not be in the courtroom with you.

SPEAKER_03:

That I will be in the past.

SPEAKER_02:

And it was it was like, well, you that's not where I'm at, Mom.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but you asked me. I'm just stealing.

SPEAKER_02:

I was like, and then he got to show me like on YouTube where you can go and buy the equipment to scam. They have they teach you. On YouTube, these people should be banned. Where in our minds, you know, like the boomers' minds, it's only in Nigeria. In our minds, we know people do it. We're probably relating more to like in person, people robbing people and setting up dates and things like that, or scamming over the phone, our grandmothers. But young people are able to do this as a profession. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

They think it's a profession. I can't tell y'all. I mean, I done cussed that. Then told them to go to Jesus plenty of times. Right. Girl. Yeah, we got off on the tangent. But that was good. That could have been a whole episode. That was good. That was so organic, and it just flowed. Right?

unknown:

I'm here with that.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. Let's get started officially. So, can you tell us a little bit about your journey as a stylist and how you've worked with all hair textures?

SPEAKER_02:

Hmm. Okay, yeah. So I grew up in Flukerville. So the schools that I grew up in were super mixed, and it was a small town outside of Austin. So I I feel like I went to school with everybody and I always had an attraction to hair, period. Like I just wanted to see people's hair. Um, and then as I started um in hair school, my hair school was different than what I perceived it was going to be. So it was predominantly white. So then I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm learning. What was your perception? I thought it was I thought I was gonna go to Central Texas Beauty College or Vogue, which was more like the population was more black.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Gotcha. In Austin.

SPEAKER_02:

But I ended up flipping the script because of finances and going to because they offer student aid, financial aid.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

So I was like, okay, well, this is different. But it was uh Bidal Sassoon Connection Cutting School, so that piqued my interest too. So I was like, I was always obsessed with Bidal Sassoon. Um so once I was there in that space, I was like, oh, now I can play with anybody's hair. Yeah. So that became my experience. And then when I got out, I went and worked at Urban Betty, and I was like, okay, well, I'll do an apprenticeship. I already did an apprenticeship at Bling Hair Salon, which was a black salon in Pflugerville at 19. So I was like, well, I'll do an apprenticeship here, work here in Austin, where I live now, and we'll go from there. And then I've kind of just brought in every texture, everybody that I can think of into my space.

SPEAKER_03:

So are you grateful for being able to go to a school that allowed you to, you know, work with, I guess you could say, looser, straighter textures opposed to one that was predominantly well, it depends on when what when you went, because back then we were probably getting relaxers.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And I don't know that it mattered to me because I like at the end of the day, I just wanted my education. And to me, it was like I just somebody paid for it.

SPEAKER_01:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

Ultimately I ended up paying for it. But at the time, somebody was saying yes to the, you know, to me, and a lot of the other schools were not allowing financial aid. So my teachers, my teachers, some of my teachers there were black. So I there was some familiarity. Some of the students were, but I don't know that it was a it beared a lot of weight. It was just really an opportunity to just learn. Cause I I knew I had already done the Shampoo Tech apprenticeship with April Kearney at Bling Salon. So it was just like I was just funneling myself into more spaces.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. I gotcha. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And then for me to want to, like now it's like I can create the space that I want.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what it has always been for me, too. Like just wanted to finally you you see these things from these different salons and what they do and how they do it. You might take something from how they, however that, you know, they choose to operate. You might bring it on into your space, or you you just see it and be like, I know I can do something better with that. You know, whatever. Or something different.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, just put a little twist on it. Because even just talking about that, I was like, oh shit, I feel like I'm I was kind of making it like school. I loved school growing up in school. I mean, I went to school with everybody, all kind of, I mean, after I think the Bosnia war, Bosnian War.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Students from like Hersynia, Bosnia. And I was always so fascinated by like this spectrum of human beings. Lebanese people next door, Mexican family down the street. They could not keep me out of their houses.

SPEAKER_03:

So with my goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

Salon space.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what you created. That's that's what you've always aimed to create, too. Like just very like universal, you know, like a big unity.

SPEAKER_02:

One day I'll be a polygl.

SPEAKER_03:

What's your philosophy when it comes to educating clients about their hair?

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh, so my thing is that I always want them to feel empowered, right? I want them to want to come to me. I want them to feel like I don't need many to tell me what my you know what I mean? Like she's educated me so I feel empowered here, here when I'm at this uh stand, if this is going on in my life, then she's already told me this is what I can, you know, start working on or look forward to or do research on, right? That they don't necessarily need me.

SPEAKER_03:

They don't I mean, excuse me, not that they don't, but they do. Right. I do wonder if the education and everything that we do offer is being consumed. Uh sometimes I I be like, is this a space to just vent? In the chair? Yeah. Is it is it a space to vent about all the obstacles and all of the trials and tribulations that you have with your hair, or do you really want a solution? Because what I've experienced, I'm just being honest.

SPEAKER_02:

Good question. Because Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

I just I you know it gets it it's like I want your goals more than you do. I want you have your hair goal goals more than you do. And at this point, I'm getting frustrated because I want to see you achieve your hair goals. But every time you come back, it's like a hard reset. It ain't powering your phone off, giving it a chance to recollect. It's like holding the power button, holding the side sound button. It's a hard reset. Or I gotta go into my general settings and do reset all network.

SPEAKER_02:

See, so so to me, when you get past that annoyance point, it's kind of like what they're saying about community. Without with community becomes annoyance, right? Right? You have to deal with the annoyance part. That's why the price the price. Because I mean not all that prices. When you think about therapists, the word therapist would why people say, that's why you're a you're such a therapist. Yes, because they do, they want that hair sister, they want that hair brother, they want that hair fairy god, whatever, that they can come talk to and you just tell them what to do. We see it in every other industry as well. Yeah. Yeah. Weight loss. I mean, can you imagine? Yeah. Nutritionists probably feel this way too. Like you just want somebody to come talk to about the Snickers. But you don't want to put them down at the stickers. And that's why we try to- Oh day.

SPEAKER_03:

That's why you can't just do hair. I mean, you can. I mean, you can, but if they are looking for something more than you just doing your hair, you're not gonna retain clientele. And I don't mind it, you know, being their therapist. Sometimes it helps me, you know, figure out. I remember one client, we could not understand why she could not retain length for nothing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like it just stayed at one length. And I said, I know you're not open to a lot of heat. I said, but I do believe if we stretched your hair a little bit, I said, because you have the ends that will jump back in. Yeah. And I'm not getting all of them. And I do feel strongly in my heart that's why you're not retaining length. Because, you know, some people only want you to blow dry and cut. They don't want you to platter and flat. Yeah. And I told her, I was like, we don't have to bounce straight, you know, still press it, just let me smoothen it out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You know? And ever since but but they have to be open to receiving it. They have to be open to allowing you to do it. Right. But she did, and then she started retaining length, you know. But so in that situation, it's like, I even figured out something, you know, that could potentially work for anyone who has that specific hair texture, you know. But for me, I guess the annoyance comes from offering a solution. You challenging the solution.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Or accepting the solution and don't follow through. That's when I get annoyed. Because then it's like, it's okay if you don't come back because obviously you don't agree with the solution or whatever the case may be, whatever reason you don't come back. But when you keep coming back and I keep repeating myself like a broken record.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you just identifying that you're now not the problem.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, I well, I definitely figure that out.

SPEAKER_02:

You're like, well, let's just make it clear that I'm not the problem.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And when the price goes up, but you don't see the results, I'm definitely still am not the problem. You know.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know that I'm I'd I'd struggle with like getting annoyed in that space. Cause it's just kind of worth it. I've made it worth it. Yeah, that makes sense. So when people do say therapists, I think they a lot of times when I hear people refer to, and that's why people say y'all are therapists, and I'm like, it's not I I don't take it as an insult. No, I don't either. Yeah, I don't I'm not gonna take that as an insult because I've chosen. Maybe if I was doing this for 45 bucks, huge insult. Not getting paid enough for the double whammy. You know what I mean? You said huge insult. No, it is. But as I'm cutting and I'm telling you I'm quiet during the space and you choose to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

I think naturally who I am. I'm taking that in and I'm I'm doing inventory on it because I've been in therapy for a long time. I'm not in it right now.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

Um, and then I've also been okay with the fact that I've kind of taught my clients how I give it to you is how I give it to you. I'm never trying to be mean, but this is just who I am. So if I give you an honest response, if you're looking for an honest response, you know, yeah, I'll create space for it to get real. So I don't mind. Once you pay, and I can say what I can say, and it's still respect and love.

SPEAKER_03:

We we both Yeah, and if you don't like it, you know, it's come back. We we can both win if you receive it though, because it's the truth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's why I don't get annoyed.

SPEAKER_00:

I think I just get annoyed mainly with what do I get You a vibe. You don't get annoyed.

SPEAKER_03:

You a vibe, whatever.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and actually. I think I get annoyed with the industry itself more than I do.

SPEAKER_03:

Than opposed to the client.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because at this point now, the clients, you can annoy me, but you I'm cutting you off.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's true. You have that free will. Yeah. You know, so that's true too. Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. Let's move on.

SPEAKER_01:

And done.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so when did you first notice the curl pattern chart impacting clients? I would say I probably notice it heavily right before the pandemic.

SPEAKER_00:

Right before the pandemic. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

With that I can I can I'm off on time sometimes.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

Um like I can't say ten years ago.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't know that it was I believe everyone's answer is gonna be different. It just depends on what you were paying for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh I think I noticed Yeah, the pandemic. Right before the pandemic, the people would be like, the four C curl, the chart, everywhere. And it I think at first it was uh I thought it was really cool. I liked I liked what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03:

I did too.

SPEAKER_02:

And then I started being like, ah shit. They did it again. They didn't got they done. Scammed us again.

SPEAKER_00:

I was cooked. I was done. I'm sick of being scammed.

SPEAKER_02:

But you know, like when I sit back and I think about it, couple puffs, you know, you're like, ah, capitalism. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00:

That's all it was.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, like who gives a shit? Everybody has like four different curl patterns on their head, period. From one hand. Yeah, my straightest. I mean, I think I learned this maybe 12 years ago, 10 years ago. Looking and paying attention as I'm combing to the back of my client's hair, super straight from the front to the back from the caucus of the mountains. The most caucus of the mountains, okay? And there's curls like mine in the back, right below here. And it's commonly where I find them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

If there's just a few. So it's like kinky babies.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. So yeah. Yep. So how would you say um how has it misled the community, the curl community?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know that it was their intention, but it maybe.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't believe it was either. I believe they just wanted a visual reference to make it easier.

SPEAKER_02:

And then you, you know, you always got those that are like, hmm, let's make it something. And that's a little bit more devious and nefarious.

SPEAKER_03:

Exactly. When they saw how people jumped on it.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So once people started being like zeroing in on this is the only way it's gotta be. And when people get so like radicalized about it, well, I can't use this. And then I found out I shouldn't be using this, and I threw all this away because I was used, this is for the two-way, and it's like, oh, y'all, it's more science than it is your curl pattern, like the science of what you're using, the science of the water you're using.

SPEAKER_03:

Everything. And that's why the curl pattern chart to me is ineffective. Because it doesn't address none of theirs.

SPEAKER_02:

No. No. It still doesn't. Like why I'm wondering why, like.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

It still don't. I do feel as though since there is so much controversy around it, the creator should have been more um, I don't know, just been more upfront about what it's for. If whatever, like, what was your goal? What was your vision? Who created it? Andre Walker.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't really this this is all I know him by. Wait a minute. Was he Oprah Wimfries? Girl, don't dress her. Do we need to look it up? Let me look it up.

SPEAKER_02:

Let's see, let's see. Cause cause, you know, I would have questions. Cause my first question in my head was, was it made by a um someone from the Caucus Mountain regions?

SPEAKER_03:

No. Well, I mean he made it is Oprah Winfrey's hairstylist. I thought I had that correct. Um, I believe he could be a mi a good mix of sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

Oops, you gotta cut that out.

SPEAKER_03:

I am not cutting that out. I'm not. People say crazier things on these podcasts. We are just real.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I'm remembering. Did it got the got the injections? Did it go to injections? I'm trying to reach back in the years. I don't know. Who am I thinking of?

SPEAKER_03:

This is him though.

SPEAKER_00:

And he has beautiful curls.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know if y'all No, no, no. I'm thinking of a different person. Okay. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03:

But yeah, I thought it was Oprah Winfrey's hairstylist for sure. But yeah, so it is.

unknown:

What?

SPEAKER_02:

That is Oprah Winfrey's hair dresser.

SPEAKER_03:

Andre Walker. I thought he was Oprah Winfrey's hairstylist.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. So I mean, it's giving, it's giving Chaz Wyn.

SPEAKER_03:

Chaz Win? Yes. Who is that?

SPEAKER_02:

Remember when products? That then there was losses.

SPEAKER_03:

W E-N. W-E-N. I don't re I don't I don't have much education on that product at all. I never really used it.

SPEAKER_02:

It's giving like celebrity hairstylists. Now I've created this thing that I can market and sell to everyone, right?

SPEAKER_03:

But you're not really you don't have a specific solution.

SPEAKER_02:

No, but it's something it's it look at genius.

SPEAKER_03:

It worked.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're dialed into capitalism and I need to make money uh and this is how Yeah, it worked.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I just wish people weren't so serious about it and weren't so concerned and like these are the products I have to buy because of this. And like, what does your hair need if you understand your curly hair is already more porous typically? Like if you understand that your straight hair, your cuticles typically closed if you're not bleaching and swimming in the ocean every single day. Uh what products to grab when you do do those outside things?

SPEAKER_03:

You really have to treat it according to what is present by hand.

SPEAKER_02:

And how we we say socially is acceptable for how to wear your hair. It was this wasn't a thing 4,000 years ago because nobody cared.

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

And there wasn't this much going on in the world in the air to harm your hair. So it's all science now.

SPEAKER_03:

It is, it sure is. I know this young lady from my hometown, she DM'd me on Facebook and she's just looking for some hair care advice. Okay. And so to make a long dialogue short, she said, natural hair is complicated. And I said, that's not necessarily true. I said, but your regimen is very complicated.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. That's what I've my research that I've done. I mean, most people come to me with like a bag full of shit.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know if I'm Yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah. And I remember being that person. So my story that I tell behind the chair is like I was a product whore. Like I wanted everything that came out, you know, in the 90s, in the 2000s. When they opened Sephora, I could have emptied my bank account. I mean, I just everything. And then when I got hired to work with some of the girls that um that worked for the company, naturallycurly.com.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah. I remember that.

SPEAKER_02:

That was my teens. Like April told me about them. I go meet these, this couple that has off 183, this white couple that had like all of the natural products in Austin that you could think of. They they had them in a warehouse. So I used to go into this warehouse and go just like peruse through the Jane Carter, all these products as a young kid. I was obsessed. Um, which I don't know what we're talking about, by the way, at this point. I don't know what this talk is.

SPEAKER_03:

Well we talk about, you know, like how celebrities, you know, they capitalize, you know. Yeah. And then, you know, uh, you mentioned the win products. And um, I don't know how we got there though. We've just been talking. I was like, let me make sure I circle back to my I was telling you about the my um Your Your client. Well, she's not my client, just a a friend from back at home. And I was telling her that her hair care regimen was complicated. That's where we worked. Okay, that's where we worked. Lord have mercy, y'all. This Sunday, forgive us.

SPEAKER_02:

And I'm about to be 41 this month, so I have to remember that my brain is not what it was 10 years ago. But yes, like all these products that I used to have, and not I can't say that not one of them was solving a problem that I was trying to solve at that time because I just wanted different hair.

SPEAKER_03:

I just wanted different hair. I didn't want the hair I had. Do you feel as though that may be a lot or the majority of my clients that come to me? You're fascinated.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I don't lay the edges. I don't put on the wig, I don't cover it up. So a lot of times by the time I'm finishing up my consultation, I'm like, listen, I have bought all the products. But really and truly, you need to figure out why you have a closet full of products. It's because you want different hair. You don't, you're not trying to And that's what you know what products are gonna you're you know, the edge control is gonna lay your edges. Right. But you w you typically want different hair. You're trying to alter what it is that you have. Very seldom are you gonna find people that will wash their hair and just walk out the door.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I've in my years of experience, I've only had one girl that did that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, or just do a protective style with no extra you know.

SPEAKER_03:

No extra bedazzle. Right. Yeah. I've only had a bad bad. That one girl that would literally sit in that chair and she'd be like, okay, we're good. And wear it. Now she do now she did have, you know, high density.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Fine hair. So, you know, it it would not work out the next day because that's a lot of detangling, you know. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But yeah, she was, but she all she was just missed it with her products and she would move on.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a lot of my clients. So I just and I know I don't know if it just became because of my aesthetic, right? Like I don't really get into I used to in my twenties try to lay the edges, but I think once I came to this realization, like, there's no edge control that's gonna lay my edges. Mine don't be rolled up in an hour.

SPEAKER_03:

I am not. I don't even.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't even try. No. And I'm like, if now if you have a natural little baby hair, I'll go ahead and swoop them. Swoop them over. Right. Like if the hair permits. Right. But if you don't know, but the way how they cut it now and they they part cut flat iron hairspray, I ain't doing that.

SPEAKER_02:

No. No, no. No.

SPEAKER_03:

It's And it's nowhere on my page that you see me lay an edge. I ain't never laid an edge. Right. I don't even know how. If I'm being honest. No, not the way how they do it today.

unknown:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

No. Simple. Simple. I was a Let's Jam kid. Mmm. There might be some PTSD and all that, which is why I'm just accepting my, you know. Hey Minnie, there's some stuff running down your face. When you do a class and your body heat would heat up and the Letch Jam starts sliding down your face.

SPEAKER_03:

It smells so good though.

SPEAKER_02:

It didn't like candy.

SPEAKER_03:

Gosh. Every the green cap. Yeah. The orange cap.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep, the pink. All of the green was my eye. I just liked how the bottle sounded when you hit it. Oh, another nail pong top. But yeah. No. Yeah. Product two. Product crazy for to try to change. That's what I feel like I was doing. Just trying to change. And then I became now I'm like a minimalist. It is what it is.

SPEAKER_03:

I know. But it's so freeing. Mm-hmm. Whenever you just let go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I would love to grow it out and play with even just the simple products that I have now because I know scientifically, these are the products that are give me the results that I want. And it's like a set of just three products for my crops.

SPEAKER_03:

That's what I told her. I told her, I said, you have so many products. Yeah, why is it complicated? But I told her, I said, nothing is complicated. I said, your regimen is complicated. You have, as I am, you know what? It's a lot. She has so many products.

SPEAKER_02:

And we end up exacerbating a problem, which I think to me, what's complicated is what's going on internally sometimes. When you can't style your hair because you're losing hair or whatever, things like that. That makes it complicated. Because then you feel like you need all these routines and all these products and all these supplements to make it grow or make it something that it's not. But it's not really that complicated.

SPEAKER_03:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

It's real and It does take attention and care. I think I will say when I went natural initially, but I was also very young.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

And coming from a family of people who were not natural. I thought it was gonna be harder work.

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

Which I don't know that it was harder, but it was it was just as like equitable work is a relaxer.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. Like attention and care. Exactly. Yeah. I was about to say, like in what, like what in what realm, you know?

SPEAKER_02:

Ritualistically. Like I have a ritual now, which um like on Octo October 24th, Maddie's coming into town from Curly Color Magic from Dallas.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah. I think she come. Yes. I remember you telling me about her. Okay, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we haven't started like blasting everybody yet, but one flyer. But yeah, I wanted to get get into really just teaching people more so rituals with the curl patterns that you have. And like, how do you spend time with these certain products in the different zones of your hair that need the care and attention and love that they need?

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. Exactly. I feel like that can start helping internally too. Yeah. I mean, not wholeheartedly, but some slight adjustments, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

I think it has a a huge impact. And for those that are partnered, I'm like, hand your partner the gua sha, the whatever. Hand them this product and let them y'all create a ritual at night where you can stop stressing about your hair or what is so complicated or that it doesn't look like the Colombian girls. Because I would see a lot of people buying products trying to well, you know, and then showing me the YouTube, and I'm like that is nothing like your hair. You all are it's like two completely different DNA. And there's not amount this amount of cream or pink lotion that is gonna make your hair swivel.

SPEAKER_03:

It's not. That's the sad part. It is sad because it's it's not you can't do nothing about it. Period. You just can't, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

And that goes, that's a that's a whole other whole other subject.

SPEAKER_03:

It is. That's an episode.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Literally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because there's a whole group of people still talking like that.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. Especially on TikTok. People are more vulnerable and transparent on t TikTok.

SPEAKER_02:

I still don't get on it.

SPEAKER_03:

You know?

SPEAKER_02:

I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know that I'm prepared.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, they are definitely way more I feel like Instagram wears a filter. Okay. And TikTok absolutely do not.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh, so I can get on TikTok.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you can talk freely and openly. Um I feel like as long as you say in the facts, go ahead. But it's it can be really intense.

SPEAKER_02:

That's what my son told me. He was like, Mom, don't get on. I said, why? He was like, 'cause they mean.

SPEAKER_03:

They are mean. I feel like you can get a good mix. Some are nice, some are mean, some are indifferent.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's go.

SPEAKER_03:

Girl.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

I'll show you one of my clips.

SPEAKER_02:

Um And you've gotten eaten a line.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, Nia, she made a comment on the uh it wasn't the last episode, because I created a solo episode in between actually a couple of. It was episode one of this season. And she made a comment that rubbed the black women in our community the wrong way. And they were so it was bad. It was bad. I I turned the comments off. It was that bad. And in my mind, I'm thinking this was an opportunity to create healthy dialogue, and y'all attacked her.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, I mean, it's the internet. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But it was can I answer the comment?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, she said um her mother's hair was long for a black woman. So on Instagram, it got nothing. But on TikTok, it was gonna go viral, many, because it was just the comments were like coming in and coming in.

SPEAKER_02:

The views were just Yeah, and that was that that's to me like a matter of like a lack of emotional intelligence to not step back and not understand where, huh?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, like where did it come from?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, where did all this come from? Because um, I I you could see both sides of that. Where like as I got older and I'm looking around at the different, we're not a monolith, but maybe what you saw in your area were people who were getting relaxers because demographically that was super normal. So you didn't see people who grew long hair. The hair was relaxed so much that it would break off. And that was typically like what you saw. You didn't go to school with like Caribbean girls in New York or Louisiana where you had the Haitian Creole mixtures that unveiled to you that, like, oh, we are not a monolith. But some people have grown up in areas in the South where it's relaxed with city and you you you get in the bob, and that's about it.

SPEAKER_03:

And that's about it. And that's exactly what I addressed. I had to create another episode addressing that episode. And basically stated, just because her experience is not yours, don't make it not real for her.

SPEAKER_02:

Correct. Because I would, I mean, I don't think it was until I got older that I noticed that the women in my family, my mom's side, uh, grew really long hair.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Really long hair.

SPEAKER_03:

And also, you know, I'm sure, you know, when you went to cosmetology school, you when you learned the science, the anatomy, the physiology behind the side.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03:

But the hair growth phase and the cycles of it, you learn like that is not true. Right. You know, accord according to, you know, science.

SPEAKER_01:

It's not.

SPEAKER_03:

But that does not mean her experience is invalid girl. And it was just, they started talking about her, like attacking her appearance. And I said Easy.

SPEAKER_02:

That's easy to do. I think that's the part. Yeah, that's easy to do.

SPEAKER_03:

And I said, y'all are just instead of, you know, offering, you know, how, you know, like like speaking from a place of your experience, that's fine. You can do that. I said, but all y'all did was deepen the oppression when you did that.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is which is why people have this discord when they go get their hair done now and want to put it all over the internet. Cause there's where's the lack of like intelligence in this situation? Why not ask her where she's coming from in that in that space?

SPEAKER_03:

I was like I said, and I that was an opportunity for healthy dialogue. And y'all just even one girl agreed with her. I'm like, see, I like that. Even one, like, there was some comments stating I've uh had this experience with my mom. My mom had the long hair. Mine was always short. I'm like, that why we can go, even if you disagree, you could simply say, that's not my experience. Where I grew up, it was like this and that. What were y'all doing? Like, what what what when you were growing up, where you wherever you were growing up? And then what you were being told. Right. Like, what was that about? That was, girl, I was just like, yeah, this was a great opportunity that just became a nun. Right. And I just, I just turned to comments.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, and then you, yeah, you can't, you can't fault what other people's lack of intelligence as well when it comes to that, like how far they know about this conversation, because a lot of people have just been told that. Like, and just demographically, how families spread out, where they landed, what they've been told. Like you've been told a different story, whether you're black or not.

SPEAKER_03:

True.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

That's so true.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Like how we still think hair is nappy and how we speak to hair. Like that could that is a whole conversation to be had.

SPEAKER_03:

It sure is. Yes. It's such a derogatory term. Um, even when I used to recommend this hair extension company called Nappy Hair Extensions, some of my clients would be like, What is this? And I'd like, I mean, it's she has she sells great quality hair. I know the adjective is very, it can raise some eyebrows for sure.

SPEAKER_02:

But I mean, it's it's kind of like that um trying to think of it. That double-edged sword. Right, right, right. It's like a double-edged sword. There's a book that I have that this lady bought me. It's like, but it uses the N-word, but it's, you know, kind of that duality of it, right? Now it's like sweet, it can be so sweet for us to also very sour. Right, right, right. There's a painting in, or not a painting, but an art piece in Riches art gallery that says nappy. I don't allow my clients to say nappy, but there's something so sweet and nostalgic about and that carries a weight about that word as well.

SPEAKER_03:

I guess it's about perspective. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, and just how you use it too. Where are you where you know what it means, the sentiment behind it. Like I think it's such a cherished word because it was carried so long to be a like a bad state of our hair. But there's something, I don't know, maybe it's just something about that art piece too that I'm like. Because you got the visual representation too.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah. And then some people's visual representation in their minds, what they saw that was attached to the word nappy, it ain't gonna be what you saw, you know? Yeah. So this was like, it's all about perspective, experiences, all of that. Have you seen people feel pressured or discouraged because of their assigned number on a curl pattern chart? Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, as soon as my clients come in and ask me about the chart, I'm I I don't even, we're not even like get the da-da-da. Educate that. Like I'll ed like I'll educate you on the reason for it. Mm-hmm. But we're not. You know.

SPEAKER_03:

When did you make up your mind where you like absolutely not? I'm done with the curl pattern chart.

SPEAKER_02:

It was probably two years ago.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. Roughly around the same time I did.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I think I had seen something that you posted, and I was like, oh, thank God, can you just talk about this?

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02:

Cause I was just like, I'm not getting why people are so like held hostage. It's like held hostage. But America, there were products coming out, which no shape, right? For C only. I'm like, get your coins, girl. But people were just literally like, I can only use this product. No, she created a product for you. I mean, for if you have that hair and if you couldn't find nothing else.

SPEAKER_03:

Gotcha. She gotcha. And it indirectly impacts us because they are so good at influencing. And we're just professionals. We our job is not to influence, it's to educate. So whenever we are going up against influencers, that's like an emotional attachment that they have with these influencers. Opposed to us, we're professionals and we're just educating. So there's no emotion attached. So we're less likely to be listened to. They don't believe us, you know, and so it's like this constant battle of, well, I I was saw I saw this influencer on TikTok and on YouTube, and we have hair very similar. And I'm like, it might look the same. And I highly doubt that. It might look the same, but y'all's hair is not the same.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. Because to break it down, your lifestyle is not the same. Your DNA is different.

SPEAKER_03:

I didn't even consider lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02:

Your water is the water you use is not the same. It's, you know, the water in Austin is different than the water that's in Houston, right? So it there's so many components that go in into that. And I find that it's cool that it's happening right now, that they're all, oh yeah, I watch this video and then I got went and bought this. And I watched this video and then I went and bought this video. But then the epic fail. Because that's what we're here for at the end of the day, right? Because it's like, let me, well, then let me influentially educate you. Okay. Yeah. Because I've done it. It's just in a different industry. I've done it in the sense of like my business, right? Where I try to take bits and pieces from here until I finally was like, no, I need to talk to the business guru herself. Like I'm sitting down with her because taking bits and pieces from the internet to Chat GPT to that girl who started the the rock bead company over there is too much. And that's what I'm finding when they're coming into their consultations, is like they come with all this internet jargon. And this girl, she uses this, this, this, that, that.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that analogy. It makes it more relatable to why they're doing this. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Because they want to learn. Yeah. Right? So it's like I tell them, well, if you want to take all this time and like your time is your money. I've done it. Like putting for years, putting all my interest in this little bit of information here, this little bit of why don't you just sit down with a professional who's going to tell you and help you understand why it is that you're grabbing this? Because that girl over there that you're watching a video of, she knows what to do with her hair for now.

SPEAKER_03:

For now. Until it's no longer working.

SPEAKER_02:

Until her hormones change, until she goes and gets color, and she doesn't understand the science of her hair.

SPEAKER_01:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

So it works for now. Probably great genetics, grows great hair, not much is ever gonna mess up her hairline. You know, all you gotta hope is that maybe she has bad toenails or something. You know what? But not everybody has this story, and you can't go off of what you see or what they're using. Because you do also don't know what they're being paid.

SPEAKER_03:

That part paid to just influence you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I paid. I paid to give you this information. I paid someone to sit down and teach me to be able to continue educating you on this subject.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I am forever, you know, that person on the internet if something comes out next, they're onto that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? So it's great. You can watch and listen, but you wouldn't understand if it's not working for you why it's not working. That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I agree. And hair is just, we're so loyal and committed to it. Mm-hmm. And it's not to us. As soon as the slightest thing changes in your body, they hair be like, yeah, I'm out of here. And do. It's so true. It's so true. Like you said, any little thing like hormonal lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, the one where it matters, because then it comes in places that'll show up in places that you never asked for.

SPEAKER_03:

Is not, is it even our friend at this point?

SPEAKER_02:

I don't know. But have you been hearing that the monoxidal DHT blocker combination is really helping people?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Yeah. I'm a little nervous about it, but I think I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, even when I had Dr. Sayo Bayan on the show, she was um, I think she's creating a product where some of that's gonna be incorporated, if I'm not mistaken. I know we touched on that subject, but maybe hers is all actually natural ingredients to make her DHT blocker. But she just named a few ingredients that's going into her DHT blocker.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. I'm gonna try to do that.

SPEAKER_03:

But I have seen it. I and that's the thing. Like it it be so much information out here. It's like, wait, did Dr. Saya say that or did I hear that somewhere else? You know, but That's the problem, I know.

SPEAKER_02:

My aunt I love my auntie to death, but she like brought in this she's doing something, the MLM kind of thing, and it was like, I want you to display this in your salon, it helps people's hair grow and the collagen, and I was just like I hear you.

SPEAKER_00:

But no. Like, I love things.

SPEAKER_02:

We're just trying to get past the curl chart part, right? Yeah, this is not.

SPEAKER_03:

I believe, you know, like when it comes to hair, I believe the terminology and understanding of hair growth has been just misunderstood because you'll have clients that'll sit in your chair and say, My hair don't grow. And I'm like, No, your hair's growing, you're just not retaining the length, you know. And even I've caught myself, you know, saying it without consciously listening to myself say it until it became the same where clients were really carrying that weight. And I'm like, wait a minute, hold on. I gotta really take a few steps back and realize what am I communicating? You know, what am I saying to them? So once I started, you know, showing them like there, those are two different things. You know, you have hair growth and then you have hair retention, hair length retention. And I think these products are trying to say it will help retain length versus growing hair from the bulb. Exactly. And so then it is presented unintentionally like a scam, you know. Unintentionally, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because when you get into the growth part, there's then you're going real deep.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you're going to be beyond the surface. You know, we all up in the what they call a hair papilla. What was the papilla? Papilla, girl. I just saw two L's and I know in Spanish two L's made the Y sound. Okay. Hold on. And that could have been something from Spanish.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. I know. I had I was like, there's just not, there's not a lot. I'm gonna like start pushing in my salon that's promising growth. It's just not happening.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-mm, because it's it can't happen. Right. I hope you retain some weight.

SPEAKER_02:

She was like, no, no, no. It really does help them like.

SPEAKER_03:

No, it don't. It doesn't. No.

SPEAKER_02:

And now you could be doing things that are in pivoting.

SPEAKER_03:

You could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Smoking, drinking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so now it's counteracting. It's not even, and that's another thing. It's just like a rabbit hole of reasons why.

SPEAKER_02:

But you got a lot of people who want the want, the, want, the, want, the, want the. So you got a system that's gonna give it, give it, get big, give it.

SPEAKER_03:

Give it, give it, give it. Instead of just being honest, having some friggin' terror.

SPEAKER_02:

That's why I love this whole thing of like just creating the ritual. And I've been asking my clients, like, photo journal, right? Awesome. Right, write, write it down. Take a picture. Write it down how you're feeling. Write it down with your aid today. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Grab the couple products that we talked about, do your whole wash system, but like, try not to worry about it. Brush your scalp. Hand the brush to your partner. Hand the brush to your kid. Yeah. Brush your scalp. But like, try to remember your stress levels, right? Take a look at your mom.

SPEAKER_03:

Cortisol, red.

SPEAKER_02:

Look at her hairline. What stressed her out at your age now? Try not to go there. Try to ashwagandha this shit out. Oshwagandha. Yes. Book an extra yoga class. One more vacation. But if your mama goes walking around at this age, screaming and yelling with her spoon in her hand at the grandkids, this is not the direction you want to go, or you're going to lose another inch to the skull.

SPEAKER_03:

Ah, grand opera.

SPEAKER_02:

Nope. It doesn't matter what your curl pattern is.

SPEAKER_03:

It don't. It doesn't matter. It don't, and that's the thing. Science don't care about your hair and your curl pattern. They do, it does not care. Whatever you are experiencing, whatever you are experiencing, whatever, whatever lifestyle you choose to have, trustably, that hair is going to respond. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

It's everybody's is, you know, on a different scale. Some some people have it, you know, more grandiose. Some people struggle with weight gain. Yeah. Some people struggle I struggle with weight loss. I'm stressed, weight loss. And hair loss.

SPEAKER_03:

Mine's, I want to gain weight.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's hard.

SPEAKER_02:

Because now I understand it makes sense when I would hear people like, I can't l look at something and I gain weight. And I'm like, I can go one day without eating, and I'm like down a pound. Down two pounds.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I I wonder if it's a thyroid. I do want to get my thyroid check because I'm just like you. I can't skip a meal. If I skip a meal, you say one pound. I'm like, oh suffice, one pound, girl. I'll drop like three.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's pretty where you're like.

SPEAKER_03:

No, for make a bologna sandwich with some chips.

SPEAKER_02:

Takes my head.

SPEAKER_03:

Can you share examples of how the chart has reinforced texturism or bias either in salons or broader media?

SPEAKER_02:

If I can answer this up. Can I an example of how it is?

SPEAKER_03:

How the chart has reinforced texturism. Like, think about that.

SPEAKER_02:

Like it's just made people go back to the space of like, it's more difficult. Yeah. 4C here needs more, more, more, more the resources, the products. We couldn't, you know, it just like, and that now you're back in a difficult space. Um and this is why I just kind of just don't. Just try these, you know, figure out what it is you want to feel. Figure it out what what are what are you really trying to achieve? You know? But I feel like it makes puts people in a space of trying to decide is their hair easy or difficult? Is it more difficult?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And it's like, what do you really want? Like, at times I want my hair to just be soft. So I just go, now I know Reverie's going to make my hair soft. It's not going to change my texture. It's not going to do anything. And it makes me not, which is why I sell the shit out of it, because I think for 4C girlies, sometimes we're just trying to make our hair feel soft and approachable. And so that's a product that doesn't. And it doesn't stay on our shelves because people are like, it works. I mean it works for everybody.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. But I feel as though it is more difficult for that high density, fine, you know, low porosity texture. It's it's m way more difficult because I feel I feel as though the industry hasn't curated or created a space for that texture. The kinky? Mm-hmm. It's it's more you can find way more products on the shelves that will cater to the looser textures opposed to the tighter ones. You know. And I just feel as though they don't know much about it. They have not even in the schools, there's not a lot of education.

SPEAKER_02:

No.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, even when we were going to school, they were teaching us to alter it and make it straighter and make it looser.

SPEAKER_02:

Because that's that's my thing. My my my question is like the what the what the frick are you trying to do with that texture, right? And so for me, as a person who carries a really tight Z call tiny or C, what I hear and what I experience was that I was trying to change it. I was always trying to change it. When it really I just want it soft. It's not now that I am, it's not changing. It's not going, I can slick it down, I can put some mousse on it and slick it down for like a day. But it is the ultimate curly. So uh when I tell people to use milk and it gives them the softness where they can maybe stretch it a little bit more, it doesn't feel so tangled. I'm like, this product is all it is, is the science of it and what he's brought together. So with force, I don't know what you're really trying to change. What are we trying to really What is the real goal?

SPEAKER_03:

Like are you really your texture or do you want it to feel softer, like you said, or do you want it more manageable? Is it right?

SPEAKER_02:

Because what are we trying to do with it? Because if you put are you trying to get it to spiral curl, it's not going to, right? Unless you put a flex rod in it. That's right. Then you may want to make it complicated. Yeah. But otherwise, like understanding the science of what you're trying to grab, if you can identify what it is you're trying to do, then I can either tell you never happening or grab this product.

SPEAKER_03:

And also accept the never happening. Don't try to force it because then it gets more complicated. Because you see that too, where they will try to force what's not gonna happen, you know? Right.

SPEAKER_02:

So that's the question when they're going for the 4C product and try like, what are you trying to achieve with this product? Like, I'm trying trying to achieve more moisture. What what do you mean? Do you do you want it to feel like greasy or do you want it to get silky like like chilies? Because when I listen to that conversation, I typically hear, I don't want this hair.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. 1,000%.

SPEAKER_02:

The product to change it. That it's gonna change it.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's like it ain't happening.

SPEAKER_02:

Some of some of your best products for what you're actually like or don't even say that. That that doesn't say all of this. Which milk doesn't speak to that. I mean, it is created by a white man, so it doesn't speak to that. But typically when I give people that product or puts it in their hair, I'm like, it's not because he did something better. Right. He just stuck to the science and he puts the pH on the bottle. So you see it when you grab it that this is going to help close your super open cuticle.

SPEAKER_03:

Which is probably what the hair feels like if it's wide open. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've had clients to tell me though they did want a different texture. Just rightfully out said. Just say it, you know. Like I don't and I'm telling you, they have nice, healthy, beautiful hair, and they just don't like that.

SPEAKER_02:

That annoys me. I will say.

SPEAKER_03:

No, that's one of your annoyances. It has made me cry. Yeah. Because there's nothing you can do to help them.

SPEAKER_02:

And you can just see what what what our history as human of human beings has like done to people as human beings.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. We're getting close on time. Let's see. I'm trying to pick and choose which question I want to ask her, y'all. Oh, my stomach growling. Is it talking? Did you eat? No, I did not get a chance to eat. Because you know, I drove up here and it's it's very rural. So in my little where you came out from.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Could you sell them like copper scope?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Mm-hmm. You already addressed that.

SPEAKER_03:

How can stylists support their clients in celebrating all textures without the limitations of a chart? I think you kind of address that.

SPEAKER_02:

When you I think a lot of times it's our words too. It's not even that difficult. Just stop just change your how you talk. I mean, just stop referring to it. I think it's just the level of I don't know, maybe a space to want to complain about some shit. I don't know. But it's like, just stop saying your hair is nappy and you might make a friend with it. Like, I don't know. I don't say my hair is nappy, right? Like, is it where I want it to be lengthwise? Is it where I want to be? To be growth-wise, it is what it is. It is. And it's not because I'm a hairdresser, but because I've chosen to love my hair that but I also adorn my head, right? You gotta make make something with it without tearing it up. I refuse to tear it up. But I will wear hats to adorn. So I just think taking the the language, changing the language around it could really help a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03:

It sure does. Nia mentioned that also in the last episode. She brought up Tabitha, how Tabitha names her hair Donna. Because you know she has the hair product, Donna's hair recipe. Yeah. And she pretty much said that when you said make a friend, it made me think about her episode.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I I think it's brilliant. You hear people always say that these grays they're just too much, everything. I love my grays. Right. Give them a personality if it makes you feel better or not stress out. Because if you can identify that stress has put an extra five pounds on your stomach, imagine what it's doing to your scalp when you're saying it's shedding. It's all coming from within. So go eat a cookie. Eat something that's gonna make you happy. And you can maybe some ice cream on the side. Because I do, you know, when people and it is, it is a to me. I am finding that like our aunties and our mother's generation that just can't say a kind word about their hair. What is that? It has to stop. Many. And they don't even they don't even hear when you say, stop saying that. Your hair's really not it be blow drying out all easy. This nappy stuff. I just think but it's a whole thing. Cause I'm learning like even the men, the the husbands.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Go get your hair straightened.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Baby, that's why I'm single. I'm I'm learning. Amen. Because I I mean I've heard it. I've heard it while I've been out dating. And it typically comes from I've heard it more from black men. Absolutely. Right? Because they feel more inclined to it's relatable. It makes sense that their mothers, their aunties, like, are you gonna do something with your hair? No. No, because this is my hair.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

Right? Because your mom and your aunt call it nappy. So I you know, it's it's it's a it's a broader pain point than a whole other podcast. But it is that is that is the the part of the industry that annoys me of of or I'd say my day-to-day is when I hear that.

SPEAKER_03:

I won't disclose this family member. It's kinda hard not to, but these two characters in this story. Okay, we have one that's about seven or eight, and then one of the older generation. Okay. You know, very old. Okay. And the seven-year-old, eight-year-old hair was just out, blown out and fro. And it was deemed as you need to do something about that. She didn't say naffy. But she said, you do need to do something about that. And I wish I knew the exact wording because it immediately I was triggered, you know. And I said, that's not how you speak to someone that's developing, especially that's developing.

SPEAKER_02:

And they don't understand that because they come from a place where you had to have your kids look in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

Or the W man was gonna see them and then make you, you know, you couldn't go get the bank clone. Or you was bad. You looked a certain way in school, or maybe y'all were poor. And they have not deconstructed that. So in my consultations, I do talk about like I hear the keywords that you're saying. So we're gonna if you come to me, we're gonna start working on deconstructing that. Because I don't do that.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right. I can't help you anyway. If if if we don't, I can't help you because no matter what I do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, then you're gonna always believe that you're nappy, unkempt, you know, you're unpresentable, you can't get the job what that way. I should be living and breathing proof that it's untrue. Right. Right? And you could add tattoos and piercings.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So you can, but this is a belief system that you have in your head based off of historical events that no longer applies today in 2026. So you have to change the way you speak. Cause it's yeah, that part, that part kills me. Because it even translates into mothers who adopt outside of the race and bring them to people who look like us and then want to even uh like denounce what it is that they have. Like I had a mother that was like, I told her she didn't have Afro hair. Afro hair is the hair that Michael Jackson has. And I was like, You wouldn't even be close to the Afro race to even be speaking on that.

SPEAKER_00:

So to tell your daughter that it was African that she didn't have Afro hair, I was like, this is bizarre.

SPEAKER_02:

Because she carried a negative, the mother carried a negative connotation with Afro and didn't want her daughter to be infiltrated with that bad word. That doesn't apply to you. And I'm like, you must certainly have an afro. You most certainly have an afro.

SPEAKER_03:

What'd she say when you say that?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I that's what she called her mom. No, I don't. No, I don't. Mom, she said I have afro hair.

SPEAKER_00:

And she was like, Her mom came over. Ask the mom to live. Go to the store. You're not helping.

SPEAKER_02:

Because you don't know what you're talking about. She has afro hair and there's nothing wrong with it. It's nothing. But we've all taught everybody that it's wrong and it still carries uh just like a dumbbell through the nation.

SPEAKER_03:

Like it's so derogatory.

SPEAKER_02:

Silky is what you want.

SPEAKER_03:

I always tell people my favorite hair is textured hair. It's so much easier. I just like it. Like I just like the fabric hair. But when it comes to certain styles, I do prefer an afro texture, especially versatility. Yeah, and not even yeah, with the versatility, but when it comes to especially like corn rowing, it is hard to corn row silky hair. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

So I'm just speaking more from depending on the hairstyle. I d there is a certain texture I will prefer opposed to others. It's not a prejudice, it's a preference.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because just the versatility that you get.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. And also just not having to fight with it. When you're trying to corn row a silkier or a looser texture, keep a curl. Yeah, it's it's just it it challenges you. So I feel like every texture has a challenge. It just depends on what hairstyle are you trying to do with it. Right. You know, but to deem this high density or afro-textured hair as challenging, unmanageable.

SPEAKER_02:

It there's way more benefits to it. It's sun blocking. And it makes sense as to why they would have tried to m mash it down, make it go away, make it look like ours. It's sun blocking. It's protecting. When my clients are like, My hair is thinning, I'm like, guess what? You're curly.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, don't nobody really. The curlier the hair, the finer it is. You know, but yeah, that's how I, you know, that's how I feel. Like, like I do love all hair, but when it comes to a certain hairstyle, I definitely prefer one over the other. I do not get excited when somebody hair. When somebody books me with, I would take my crimping iron out in a minute and create texture, you know? So, you know, just it just depends. Like everything is circumstantial, everything is situational, and you approach it depending on what is present. Yeah. And you need to approach it in order to execute the finish the way that they want to design right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. I think that's true. Yeah. Textured hair, uh it has more, there's just more versatility to it, and it has more benefits if you really wanted to compare, like sit, sit down with it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. But I love it. Do more with it. Yeah. I think that's more like I love it. Yeah, it just depends. Like, I'm it just depends. You know. It depends, you know, like no different from detangling. Yes, I would love to have the benefits, even for my clients' sake, to be able to detangle without the hassle that they feel whenever they're trying to section and part, and the hair just keeps drawing back up to the scalp, and they don't understand. Hold it with some tension and you have to keep grabbing it, you know, as you detangle, versus somebody with looser texture, they don't have to do all of that, you know? Yeah. So I do feel as though sometimes they want some something just easy, some just low maintenance. Maybe they do love their hair.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's common when they going from like natural, they're just like, it's just easier. And seeing that, I ain't gonna argue with you. Right. But I I'll let you find out. It's not easier. No. Your natural hair is gonna be the like it's fun to straighten your hair. I guess if you perceive it as easy, but wait till you start getting older, right? Or wait till your hair starts having shedding issues and it's bone straight.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And that's what you're accustomed to.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Natural's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_00:

The natural?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think so. They happen with my grandmother that way. Like she that's why she still get 'em. Relaxes, because she couldn't take care of her natural hair. You know, it just depends. You know, she don't she's not physically able. So she in order for it, you know, to make it.

SPEAKER_02:

She makes her straightened.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm. She relaxes. And it's it's doing great. She gets like two a year.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Like two a year. And she stay on top of her trims and cuts, and her hair is longer than mine and it's fuller than mine's.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So it's it's it's it depends. It depends. It depends.

SPEAKER_02:

Because I'm not, I don't do relaxers, but if they want 'em, if they want to be silk pressed, yes, I will refer them out. But silk press, I'm here for a silk press.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm here for a silk press until it starts getting too stressful on the hair. Um, or if they won't maintain it, but I'm not ever gonna stop anybody from getting a silk press or saying that it's easier than curly hair.

SPEAKER_03:

It depends, you know, because if you go, if you approach it realistically and understand that your hair is gonna revert, it could be easier. It it's all in here in the mind.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You know, if you know by day three, it might start to revert at the root.

SPEAKER_02:

Scroll back up?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and everything is so circumstantial too, because it's like, is your hair even, does it have the memory to stay straight? You know, you have to create that to girl. Okay, that we gotta wrap up. We gotta wrap up, y'all. I am so sorry. We gotta wrap up. Because we have gone past our time, but that was good. We might have to create a couple more episodes just based on everything we were talking about, because that was getting good. I probably should have lied it for two hours. Make sure y'all follow Minnie on Instagram at Shag Noir Salon ATX ATX. What about your personal? It's Tricofile. Tricophile, okay. Um, I didn't know if he wanted people to follow you there, so that's what I was like, what are you?

SPEAKER_02:

So you know, that's where I'm a little bit more trouble.

SPEAKER_03:

Check out Salon ATX.

SPEAKER_02:

A professional.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, make sure y'all follow her for if you want to experience more of me. Y'all see how this episode got so good. We're running over time, so we gotta wrap it up with a couple more minutes. But thank y'all for tuning in. Thank y'all. That was such an important conversation. A big thank you to Minnie of Shag North Club for coming back on the show for the third time and sharing her insight. If there's one thing to take away from today, it's that your hair isn't a number or a letter. The curl pattern chart might be popular, but it doesn't define your beauty, your worth, or how you should take care of your hair. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who will benefit from hearing this. And don't forget to follow me. She's always giving great advice and supporting the community. Thanks for being here, and I'll see you next time for more conversations that heal, empower, and celebrate your hair.